04:43 <jpo> qyliss: i'm not sure i see the point of starttls anymore. either you force TLS, at which point there's no point because you might as well just avoid the complexity and start with a tls clienthello, or you don't force TLS, and it's downgradeable by a MITM either way

04:44 <jpo> it's not like TLS is still some new thing that might make sense to carefully probe support for in a backwards-compatible way

04:44 <jpo> idk. maybe there's some use case i'm not considering

10:22 <qyliss> jpo: AAUI server-to-server SMTP often doesn't support SMTP over TLS, and will only do STARTTLS

10:23 <qyliss> If you wanted to force it, I think it would probably be more reasonable to terminate the connection if they didn't do STARTTLS at the earliest possible opportunity, since that just seems to be the way encrypted mail is negotiated.

10:24 <qyliss> But email is just a mess in general.

11:01 <hyperfekt> qyliss: That sucks, especially because forcing STARTTLS is against the RFC :<

11:01 <qyliss> amazing

11:02 <hyperfekt> I was planning to only accept mail over TLS for the mailserver I wanna write

11:03 <qyliss> Note that most client to server mail happens over TLS

11:04 <qyliss> but receiving-only servers won't even have the right port open in lots of cases

11:04 <qyliss> (or relays)

11:05 <hyperfekt> Damn. Another drop in the 'the entire protocol needs throwing away' bucket

11:05 <qyliss> it wasn't even clear to me _how_ to receive mail over TLS

11:06 <qyliss> like, how to set up postfix for it